The future of Democracy

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon May 26, 2014 3:09 pm

This is inspired on what you guys were talking about at the non-US news thread (European elections) and on what I experience here in Brazil:

It's a fact that Capital controls the media. Media presence is a huge, probably defining, factor on democratic elections. Therefore, modern democracy is hopelessly skewered towards big-business interests. Interests that we know that are inherently anti-democratic. Therefore, Democracy is fucked.

Right now, thanks to Internet being still very new, the Capital-media alliance has experienced some cracks that allow for dissident voices to be heard. Call me pessimist, but I don't see the current freedom we experience online to last, because the pro-Capital side can simply throw money at the problem (astro-turfing, paid commenters, outright buying people out, etc) until it disappears.

I fear I may be falling victim of conspiracy theory thinking, seeing patterns where are none but at the same time Democracy everywhere in the world seems to be doomed and I see no escape for it. Thoughts about that?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue May 27, 2014 12:39 am

Here's the thing: democracy is relatively young. Okay, a really shitty form of it dates back to ancient Greece. But a democracy with which I am in any way happy is about as old as my grandfather. I think it's too soon to be calling time of death. I really want to think we've hit a rough patch, and that the particularly bad cases at the moment are serving as a catalyst for people to do something about it (using the resources we still have available, such as the Internet, which now serves the role the media used to) or at worst lesson for a future generation.

angelfromanotherpin · Tue May 27, 2014 12:56 am

Between the World Wars, mostly due to the Great Depression, there was a period where people were very pessimistic about the future of democracy – it looked a lot like the future belonged to Fascism and Stalinism. Well, the Great Recession seems to have had a similar effect. So democracy isn't doomed, but it is definitely being challenged.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Tue May 27, 2014 12:59 am

Most people are too psychologically vulnerable to groupthink for modern democracy to be viable with anything approaching the modern media. Not everyone, granted. But enough that media exposure is the key factor to winning elections, which is why everyone works so hard to raise money for political campaigns.

Of course, this raises the question of why we want people who can be so easily swayed in the aggregate influencing policy... and I honestly can't see any reason to do so. Democracy simply isn't the way to get good government in a modern society.

Democracy isn't doomed. It's a great way to manipulate hoi polloi into not rebelling while the powerful make them dance. Which is why 'democratic institutions' are so widespread. The powerful know a good thing (for them) when they see it.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:01 am

Occluded Sun wrote:Of course, this raises the question of why we want people who can be so easily swayed in the aggregate influencing policy... and I honestly can't see any reason to do so. Democracy simply isn't the way to get good government in a modern society.

While Democracy is certainly an imperfect system, I double dog dare you to name a system that has performed "better" by any measure.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:18 am

I do not live in a democracy. I live in a republic which pays a lot of lip service to democratic principles.

This is likely also true for most of you reading this.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:29 am

Australia is generally an arachnocracy: rule by spiders.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:43 am

I thought the koalas were the secret masters.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Tue May 27, 2014 3:19 am

I don't think democracy is failing yet. I think that we're going through a period of insanity where a bunch of old people in the throes of death are trying to re-exert their influence over the world before they kick it.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue May 27, 2014 3:49 am

Occluded Sun wrote:Most people are too psychologically vulnerable to groupthink for modern democracy to be viable with anything approaching the modern media. Not everyone, granted. But enough that media exposure is the key factor to winning elections, which is why everyone works so hard to raise money for political campaigns.

Of course, this raises the question of why we want people who can be so easily swayed in the aggregate influencing policy... and I honestly can't see any reason to do so. Democracy simply isn't the way to get good government in a modern society.

Democracy isn't doomed. It's a great way to manipulate hoi polloi into not rebelling while the powerful make them dance. Which is why 'democratic institutions' are so widespread. The powerful know a good thing (for them) when they see it.

That's... completely backwards. The institutions and elites of the modern Western world are overwhelming anti-democratic. Example: The U.S. public is in support of campaign finance and electoral reform by absolutely ridiculous margins, but the government is currently dismantling the few limitations already in place with no hint of new ones in sight - but hey if you want to see some states gerrymandered, no problem. That's not people being convinced to do what the elites want through the rallying cry of DEMOCRACY! - it's just straight up disregard for the will of the electorate because the electoral system is so fucked they barely matter anyway.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:07 am

DSMatticus wrote:That's... completely backwards. The institutions and elites of the modern Western world are overwhelming anti-democratic.

Ah, one of those arguments where words mean whatever the person using them wants them to mean.

I presume that a 'democratic' society, DSMatticus-style, would involve the people just happening to choose the things DSMatticus wants them to want instead of what they actually want. Because remarkably, people have chosen the system as it works and continue to choose it. Probably they'll choose it in the future, too.

It's not exactly a secret that the winner of elections is usually the candidate that spent the most on ad campaigns, or that various political parties are constantly trying to define voting zones into gerrymandered blobs. Why haven't the people risen up and overthrown those oppressing their wills? (Because they're not and they aren't.)

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:12 am

Is this some new version of "democratic" where anything that isn't currently being subjected to violent revolution is "democratic"?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:14 am

Occluded Sun wrote:Why haven't the people risen up and overthrown those oppressing their wills? (Because they're not and they aren't.)

Because Tanks can fucking kill me.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Tue May 27, 2014 7:27 am

Kaelik wrote:Because Tanks can fucking kill me.

And there are lots of politicians driving those tanks, right? Corporate overlords keepin' you down with RPGs, threatening your family. Special interests holding loved ones hostages unless you submit to their demands.

Definition of Democracy

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:06 am

Occluded Sun wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Because Tanks can fucking kill me.
And there are lots of politicians driving those tanks, right? Corporate overlords keepin' you down with RPGs, threatening your family. Special interests holding loved ones hostages unless you submit to their demands.

Because it really matters to me who drives the tank. Guess what, if there is a 10% chance of Tank death, I'm still not going to risk Tank Death. And hey, I'm pretty sure the conditioning and training they put military soldiers through is sufficient to get a greater percentage than 10% chance of violent revolutionaries over campaign finance reform killed.

But since you are so sure, why don't you stage a violent revolt and hope the people in the tanks take your side. Since you believe it is inherent in all human beings to reject the concept of taxes, surely they must all side with you right?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:19 am

The EPP took home 28% of the vote. The European Parliament election turnout was 43%. That means that 12% of the electorate voted for Juncker to be the president of the European Commission. And he's going to be president of the European Commission. The Austerity system he is a proponent of consistently polls at less than 40% approval across the board. People hate it, it doesn't work, and it got re-elected because the system is rigged. The system is such that literally less than one eighth of the electorate can claim a mandate for the status quo, because the status quo is so entrenched that a minority of the minority is all the votes they need to refuse to change course.

Democracy is not failing the European Union. The European Union is failing democracy.

-Username17

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:16 am

Occluded Sun wrote:Ah, one of those arguments where words mean whatever the person using them wants them to mean.

Occluded Sun wrote:It's not exactly a secret that the winner of elections is usually the candidate that spent the most on ad campaigns, or that various political parties are constantly trying to define voting zones into gerrymandered blobs. Why haven't the people risen up and overthrown those oppressing their wills? (Because they're not and they aren't.)

John Magnum wrote:Is this some new version of "democratic" where anything that isn't currently being subjected to violent revolution is "democratic"?

You've defined any regime not currently being violently opposed by the majority of the populace as democratic - almost immediately after accusing people of making shit up for the definitions of words, and just shortly before linking to a definition of democracy that does not agree with you in any way. With a side of bizarrely nonsensical questions about whether or not senators are going to run people over with tanks.

So... yeah. I got nothing to add to that. That's the sort of quality gibberish that stands on its own.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:23 am

There's a definition of the concept of democracy provided right there. Here, I'll post it again for you: Definition of Democracy

Now, I could see someone arguing that Western democracies aren't making wise decisions. But suggesting that the governments of the Western world aren't actually democratic? That's just crazy. They're Constitutional Monarchies, they're Republics, they're all sorts of things... but they're democracies. See also Forms of government, particularly the section on the different kinds of democracy.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue May 27, 2014 9:41 am

Are you aware that the senate is a thing that exists? Didn't I already break down the whole first-past-the-post voting thing for you in an incredibly basic way in the other thread? Did I not just mention gerrymandering two posts ago? By all means, if you think those three things are democratic or negligibly undemocratic, you are welcome to explain yourself. And after that, we can have a talk about whether or not voters acting on false information produced by propaganda machines running on piles of cash are 'acting democratically.'

But everyone who isn't completely bumfuck retarded has already figured out that the system has only ever been a rough approximation of a democratically elected government, and is similarly aware that that approximation is particularly rough right now.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Tue May 27, 2014 12:22 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The EPP took home 28% of the vote. The European Parliament election turnout was 43%.

-Username17

The news told me that the election turnout in Slovakia was 13%. Is there a minimum % of votes required for valid elections?

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Tue May 27, 2014 12:35 pm

Can't see how there could be, as long as the reason people don't vote is purely that they decide to abstain, and not due to voter discouragement tactics or "stealth" elections.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:46 pm

The modern democracies are both relatively young and relatively old.

Democracies where everyone, including women, can vote are very recent. But the underlying mechanics are still the ones of the old democracies: you elect someone local to listen to what you have to say, and someone at the head of the state to handle everything that everyone has to say and manage the country accordingly.

That was very good when these democracies were born: most of your concerns were about local stuff, it was convenient to have someone to report them to the higher level, and at the top level, everyone could understand it with - at most - just a few words to explain the situation.

Nowadays, the decision of a guy in a company in another country can have more impact on my life than what happens in my city. And even if I could forward that concern to the head of the state, it's likely that this person wouldn't be able to understand the issue without having a strong background in some field.

On top of that, there are many groups that have had times to find ways to manipulate the democracies. And obviously, they've used this power to protect themselves from losing it. So you've got widespread corruption, and some of it is even legal and considered part of the system.

And finally, you've got the fact that there are now non-governmental bodies that are bigger than some nation states. Some banks or big companies can take a single decision that will have more impact on a citizen life than most of the decisions his government makes, and these decisions aren't made democratically.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer · Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:39 pm

It's not even democracy that's the issue... It's how the political and economic institutions of a country work in conjunction with each other.

If one wants a good look at what good and bad government can look like read this blog and their book:

http://whynationsfail.com/